That sameness you point to strikes a chord. The phrase, "The cover up was worse than the crime" popped into my post-menopausal head. In my case, the crime was multifold. Too many to name, really, but don't most women feel that on some level? That by not being absolutely 100% perfectly whatever we think we are supposed to be is a horrible crime? We certainly are punished regularly enough to succumb to the cover up and do all the things to doll ourselves up and dumb ourselves down to the point where if we are interchangeable with our peers it gets us success on TV and blandly tweeted upon.
Succumbing to the cover up: Thank you for so poignantly naming the point at which internalized misogyny, patriarchy, and the fear of being different starts to dictate our behavior. Thinking about how we heal from the "crime" without resorting to the "cover up". <3
I loved this piece. Did not watch the show because I didn’t think I could mentally handle it without getting super triggered 🙄. One thing that popped into my mind that I wanted to share was in response to the tweet about not being able to tell the women on the show apart. 100% understand the anger and what you wrote about your own response and the pervasiveness of that sentiment in our society. And the question in my mind is also why are women (not all obviously) putting so much effort and money into all looking the same? Same face work, same hair, same clothes, etc… it’s like the chicken and the egg. Is it because of what we get from society and the patriarchy? Is that our part in contributing to the system? Is it both? Things I think about…
ABSOLUTELY THIS THIS THIS. Safety in homogeneity, not standing out, not making waves, in aligning ourselves with patriarchal and other hegemonic systems that maintain the status quo. But the seeing it, the naming it, the choosing something different. Power in that.
I love your writing so much, and the resources you provide are on point. Our book club also read All Fours this summer. I especially enjoyed listening to it narrated by July. My husband then began listening to it on our shared Audible subscription … alas, he says he lost interest 🙃
I have to comment bc when I met with Helen it was like looking at the non binary version of you. It was eerie and only reinforced my feelings that we continue to engage with only those “just like” which continues to create the same echo chamber and not truly change. “All fours” for me was like watching a narcissist destroy and excuse themselves from hurting others!
I was hoping someone would raise that perspective about the novel! It’s something I felt flickers of throughout the reading process, but not being a mother/parent to a child myself I don’t feel the authority to comment on. The novel to me was July’s exploration of answering that very question—“what would happen if I followed this impulse in me” (to do the things that you are saying “destroy” and “excuse…from hurting others”)? What is on the other side of that impulse? That’s a fascinating question, but for me to find it an interesting exercise—as someone without a child myself—is totally distinct from how someone with children might feel.
I wish I had the kindness (I see a theme) towards the character that you do; the narcissistic feeling was not the actions she took to find herself but the end result that she took such pride in, her new open family. She in essence was once again the same already well established norm, “partnered” to care for a being, and to be cared for and maintained herself. The feminine divine replaced with sex, botox, and self love; not the kind of love that forwards anyone but those with already extremely well established privilege. The privilege part was arguably the most significant aspect of my own discomfort with the book. That and the underlying tone that her womb was a killing machine not a incubator. She clearly recognized that "god" almost stole from her the only other being with whom she actually worries about. That was the deepest thread of narcissism for me, the ways in which she so clearly tried to control everything with "the truth" while openly lying to those she apparently loved and cherished most. It was as though, like humanity, she was not allowed to share her truth which is what any 'good' mother wants most for her child. I think I would have liked the book even less if I did not know that the author herself did move out and away from the same home and dysfunction that was en'titled' progress. I think this is a perfect example for your own writing of a national best seller reenforcing that women need to be in a domestic relationship, under one roof, to find the necessary peace to raise a strong individual, it was the queer version of "trad culture".
Interesting perspective! I read a lot of the book quite differently, but that's how it always is with any process as intimate as filtering hundreds of pages through our own minds, eh? It doesn't sound like you'd have any desire to hear more from July, but she discusses some of what you mention above in conversation with Esther Perel on Esther's most recent podcast episode.
I am always open to other perspectives and will definitely be listening to Esther and Miranda today at work. I am a huge fan of Miranda July and loved her prose and use of language throughout the book, it was the narcissistic personality and the reframe of what already exists but is impossible for most divorcing families to maintain. We leave for a reason and yes, in Divorce it is the women statistically leaving first. And to leave takes courage - let’s not even bring the statistics of abuse and how many times it takes to leave!
I wanted to come back and speak specifically to your comment about not being a mother and therefore not having the authority to speak… You are a woman and clearly a nurturing being. Not every woman becomes a mother, but the ability to love, nurture, care, and yes, fight and protect is still maternal, and that doesn’t need to come with a child of your own. We are not all given the choice or opportunity to have children and some are now not even given the choice not to. I mother many more beings than just my children and willingly!
Totally agree! I just can't speak to the specific set of feelings and experiences that come with this very distinct facet and exploration of motherhood and its discontents
Odd, I think you speak to this daily, you aren’t satisfied with the roles and relationships that women are offered, you are writing a book specifically speaking to this. Motherhood is not necessary to have a maternal perspective. Which brings me back to the question did the book reinforce already established norms, even Esther pushed Miranda on that question in the interview you mentioned. Which by the way satisfied my questions about Miranda needing her own personal space and time to be alone. A topic which was truly never explored in the novel and as a single mother and co parent remains the hardest part of the equation for myself and many other women. We continue to struggle to maintain home, work, family, really any thing close to balanced. Most of my remarried friends are comprising greatly to never be alone again, bc it’s pretty damn hard for any woman to survive, let alone thrive alone with kids.
That sameness you point to strikes a chord. The phrase, "The cover up was worse than the crime" popped into my post-menopausal head. In my case, the crime was multifold. Too many to name, really, but don't most women feel that on some level? That by not being absolutely 100% perfectly whatever we think we are supposed to be is a horrible crime? We certainly are punished regularly enough to succumb to the cover up and do all the things to doll ourselves up and dumb ourselves down to the point where if we are interchangeable with our peers it gets us success on TV and blandly tweeted upon.
Succumbing to the cover up: Thank you for so poignantly naming the point at which internalized misogyny, patriarchy, and the fear of being different starts to dictate our behavior. Thinking about how we heal from the "crime" without resorting to the "cover up". <3
I loved this piece. Did not watch the show because I didn’t think I could mentally handle it without getting super triggered 🙄. One thing that popped into my mind that I wanted to share was in response to the tweet about not being able to tell the women on the show apart. 100% understand the anger and what you wrote about your own response and the pervasiveness of that sentiment in our society. And the question in my mind is also why are women (not all obviously) putting so much effort and money into all looking the same? Same face work, same hair, same clothes, etc… it’s like the chicken and the egg. Is it because of what we get from society and the patriarchy? Is that our part in contributing to the system? Is it both? Things I think about…
ABSOLUTELY THIS THIS THIS. Safety in homogeneity, not standing out, not making waves, in aligning ourselves with patriarchal and other hegemonic systems that maintain the status quo. But the seeing it, the naming it, the choosing something different. Power in that.
I love your writing so much, and the resources you provide are on point. Our book club also read All Fours this summer. I especially enjoyed listening to it narrated by July. My husband then began listening to it on our shared Audible subscription … alas, he says he lost interest 🙃
Ooh I can only imagine how...lively...it is read by the author! Related re the husband: This post from Elise Loehnen was very enlightening and compassion-inducing https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/p/a-crisis-of-male-loneliness
Even before reading, I saw the subject line and was like NOPE!!!!
But I have a copy of All Fours next to my bed. Time to get reading. <3 Thanks for sharing this.
Ooh report back and let us know how you like!
I have to comment bc when I met with Helen it was like looking at the non binary version of you. It was eerie and only reinforced my feelings that we continue to engage with only those “just like” which continues to create the same echo chamber and not truly change. “All fours” for me was like watching a narcissist destroy and excuse themselves from hurting others!
I was hoping someone would raise that perspective about the novel! It’s something I felt flickers of throughout the reading process, but not being a mother/parent to a child myself I don’t feel the authority to comment on. The novel to me was July’s exploration of answering that very question—“what would happen if I followed this impulse in me” (to do the things that you are saying “destroy” and “excuse…from hurting others”)? What is on the other side of that impulse? That’s a fascinating question, but for me to find it an interesting exercise—as someone without a child myself—is totally distinct from how someone with children might feel.
I wish I had the kindness (I see a theme) towards the character that you do; the narcissistic feeling was not the actions she took to find herself but the end result that she took such pride in, her new open family. She in essence was once again the same already well established norm, “partnered” to care for a being, and to be cared for and maintained herself. The feminine divine replaced with sex, botox, and self love; not the kind of love that forwards anyone but those with already extremely well established privilege. The privilege part was arguably the most significant aspect of my own discomfort with the book. That and the underlying tone that her womb was a killing machine not a incubator. She clearly recognized that "god" almost stole from her the only other being with whom she actually worries about. That was the deepest thread of narcissism for me, the ways in which she so clearly tried to control everything with "the truth" while openly lying to those she apparently loved and cherished most. It was as though, like humanity, she was not allowed to share her truth which is what any 'good' mother wants most for her child. I think I would have liked the book even less if I did not know that the author herself did move out and away from the same home and dysfunction that was en'titled' progress. I think this is a perfect example for your own writing of a national best seller reenforcing that women need to be in a domestic relationship, under one roof, to find the necessary peace to raise a strong individual, it was the queer version of "trad culture".
Interesting perspective! I read a lot of the book quite differently, but that's how it always is with any process as intimate as filtering hundreds of pages through our own minds, eh? It doesn't sound like you'd have any desire to hear more from July, but she discusses some of what you mention above in conversation with Esther Perel on Esther's most recent podcast episode.
I am always open to other perspectives and will definitely be listening to Esther and Miranda today at work. I am a huge fan of Miranda July and loved her prose and use of language throughout the book, it was the narcissistic personality and the reframe of what already exists but is impossible for most divorcing families to maintain. We leave for a reason and yes, in Divorce it is the women statistically leaving first. And to leave takes courage - let’s not even bring the statistics of abuse and how many times it takes to leave!
I wanted to come back and speak specifically to your comment about not being a mother and therefore not having the authority to speak… You are a woman and clearly a nurturing being. Not every woman becomes a mother, but the ability to love, nurture, care, and yes, fight and protect is still maternal, and that doesn’t need to come with a child of your own. We are not all given the choice or opportunity to have children and some are now not even given the choice not to. I mother many more beings than just my children and willingly!
Totally agree! I just can't speak to the specific set of feelings and experiences that come with this very distinct facet and exploration of motherhood and its discontents
Odd, I think you speak to this daily, you aren’t satisfied with the roles and relationships that women are offered, you are writing a book specifically speaking to this. Motherhood is not necessary to have a maternal perspective. Which brings me back to the question did the book reinforce already established norms, even Esther pushed Miranda on that question in the interview you mentioned. Which by the way satisfied my questions about Miranda needing her own personal space and time to be alone. A topic which was truly never explored in the novel and as a single mother and co parent remains the hardest part of the equation for myself and many other women. We continue to struggle to maintain home, work, family, really any thing close to balanced. Most of my remarried friends are comprising greatly to never be alone again, bc it’s pretty damn hard for any woman to survive, let alone thrive alone with kids.
compromising...